German influence if the Nazis had won

German influence if the Nazis had won


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By German influence I am referring to the German language. I hear all the time that if Germany won the war we would be speaking German right now. Clearly there is a lot of exaggeration there and the extent of the German language within other European societies if the Nazis won can be argued, but we can agree that it would be very influential not only in Europe but the world. I believe there are two scenarios that could have played otherwise in the war that can explain my question. First the Germans winning in Europe but no control whatsoever over the US as it supposedly stayed neutral.
Second Germany defeating the US as well. Taking the first and second scenario into consideration what would be the international language today, German or English? We know English's influence on the world was brought up by the US power after the war so if they were defeated would that crush English as a future language in scenario two? Now judging from past experience with dictatorships, which Nazism was the worst of all, don't you think that if they had won the war as things began to settle down, and the Germans were no longer occupied by the war, they would finally get tired and start to protest and revolt against Nazism and it would crumble from within Berlin itself? How would that affect German influence do you think? I think it is important that I say that I know this question does not have an answer it is based on personal opinion and that I have excluded Russian and Japanese from this to make things simpler but if you want to include them feel free to do so. History is not my subject I never did it in school so please bear with my disorganised and perhaps unpractical questions. Thanks


This is counter-factual ("alt") history but we can extrapolate from normal history.

Specifically, being the dominant power of a geographic region does not in and of itself change the language of other countries in that region. The process, if it occurs at all, takes a long time - like centuries.

Consider how long it took for English to overtake French as the lingua franca of Europe; or the fact that Eastern Germans (Deutsche Demokratische Republik) didn't start speaking Russian overnight; or that the Basque language is still used in certain provinces despite losing sovereignty to Castilian speakers in the 16th century.

Still, that said - Germany's original formation from the Prussian states relied heavily on a common language, and it is not unreasonable to believe that a Greater Germanic Reich would have been ruthless enough to change the native language of all speakers within that territory.


What if Germany won at Kursk?

Post by Rommel8 » 23 Jun 2003, 01:26

Well. what if? How do you think the war would have changed, if in anyway.

I personally believed there was a chance for german victory.

Post by Eightball » 23 Jun 2003, 07:06

Post by Major Linden » 23 Jun 2003, 11:37

I`ll have to second Eightball on this one. The German losses (particularly in manpower) were just too staggering for a nation of a mere 80 million to recover from in such a short period of time.

Add to this the fact that the Red Army had evolved into an extremely tough fighting force, (like a lump of coal into a diamond via the heat of battle), and you have a pretty fair indication that the game was up no matter the result at Kursk.

Post by Qvist » 23 Jun 2003, 18:26

Even a maximally favourable result at Kursk from the German point of view would have allowed no more than the opportunity to maintain a more stable front in 1943. At this point, the Red Army was simply an opponent that was too superior in resources, certainly far too strong for the German army to defeat consistently.

Post by Rommel8 » 23 Jun 2003, 19:47

But many historians (from what I have gathered from books and documentaries) think that if there was a ring around all those soviet armies, could have they forced a soviet surrender all together?

Post by davethelight » 24 Jun 2003, 14:07

Post by TIBERIVS » 27 Jun 2003, 23:15

Totally agree, USSR was an industrial giant with millions of men to throw at the Germans.factories were producing tanks and planes undesturbed from German bombers throught most of the war.Though they lost hundreds of thousands if not millions in the great incirclements of Barbarossa,they still had more then enough replacements.For example in 1945 the Russians had millions around Berlin, not exactly sure how many but according to Anthony Beevors "Fall of Berlin" they had 1,030,494 men transfered from the Gulags alone.Though untrained, a million men is a sledgehammer of an assault on a single city.This shows us just how big the Soviet juggernaut was.

Now the Kursk offensive was originallyset to begin in the Spring of 43,April i believe.However Hitler postponed it until June because he wanted the new powerful Tiger tanks to take part in the battle.The message was intercepted by the allies and given to the Soviets, giving them enought time to build the defences around Kursk. I think a better question is what if the Germans had atttacked in April without the Tigers, and gotten the Soviets by surprise?

Post by Eightball » 28 Jun 2003, 16:50

TIBERIVS wrote: Totally agree, USSR was an industrial giant with millions of men to throw at the Germans.factories were producing tanks and planes undesturbed from German bombers throught most of the war.Though they lost hundreds of thousands if not millions in the great incirclements of Barbarossa,they still had more then enough replacements.For example in 1945 the Russians had millions around Berlin, not exactly sure how many but according to Anthony Beevors "Fall of Berlin" they had 1,030,494 men transfered from the Gulags alone.Though untrained, a million men is a sledgehammer of an assault on a single city.This shows us just how big the Soviet juggernaut was.

Now the Kursk offensive was originallyset to begin in the Spring of 43,April i believe.However Hitler postponed it until June because he wanted the new powerful Tiger tanks to take part in the battle.The message was intercepted by the allies and given to the Soviets, giving them enought time to build the defences around Kursk. I think a better question is what if the Germans had atttacked in April without the Tigers, and gotten the Soviets by surprise?

I believe it was supposed to be launched in May, but was posponed till July because Hitler wanted the new Panther tanks to complete. Now, if they *had* indeed attacked in May, without the Panthers maybe they would have had a better shot at it, though I still believe Soviet-Russia would have won.


What if Hitler Developed Nuclear Weapons During World War II?

World War II is filled with historical 'what-ifs.' This is the biggest of them all.

In the early years of World War II, it looked as if Germany might have the luxury to spend its time developing a new generation of super-weapons. The Nazis haphazardly pursued the idea of building an atomic bomb, with an eye toward eventual conflict with the United States. However, the immediate demands of war, combined with Western Allied sabotage, undercut the program, leaving it at the basic research stage by war’s end.

But what if the Germans had devoted more attention to the program, or had lucked into more substantial breakthroughs? What could the Nazis have done with an atomic weapon?

Context for Construction:

The American atomic weapons program cost an enormous amount of money, and took human capital away from other important projects. But the United States, unique among the great powers of World War II, believed that the war would last long enough to justify complex projects.

Germany did not have this luxury, especially after it became apparent that the Soviet Union would not collapse in 1941. For Germany to seriously consider taking the atomic plunge, it needed favorable war conditions that would allow the development of long-term research projects. In the event, jets, submarines, and rockets took up a greater portion of the Reich’s scarce engineering resources.

The German program faced other obstacles. Western Allied attacks on the German industrial economy took their toll, even if they could not push Germany out of the war. Sabotage, like the attacks on heavy water processing plants in Norway, also curtailed German progress. The nature of the Nazi regime also made scientific progress difficult. Many of the best nuclear scientists disliked the Nazis, and took steps to escape Europe. The Germans could not draw on Europe’s scientific expertise to the same extent as the Americans. Nevertheless, the Nazi regime did make substantial progress on a number of engineering frontiers, and could have developed a weapon in time.

Solving the basic theoretical and engineering problems wouldn’t have suddenly turned Germany into a major nuclear power, however. The German program concentrated on enriched uranium, a simpler project that eliminated some of the more tricky problems faced by the United States. However, the need for stocks of uranium (some of which had been seized from Belgium), and the extensive industrial complex needed to enrich, would have made it difficult for the Germans to produce a large number of devices.

Even if the Germans had managed to develop an atomic weapon, delivery would have been a problem. For tactical use against ground targets, the Wehrmacht could have engineered a way to deliver the devices, but anything at longer range would have been a struggle.

The Luftwaffe lacked an advanced heavy bomber capable of hitting targets in England or Russia, much less the United States. Designed to fight in support of the Wehrmacht, the German air force had toyed with the idea of heavy bombers in the 1930s, but concentrated on lighter, smaller planes as war approached. Surely, the German could have developed a strategic bomber given enough time Junkers, Heinkel, and Focke Wulf all worked on large bomber projects during the war. But such aircraft were enormously complex and expensive, with long lead times. The B-29 program reputedly cost more than the atomic bomb itself, and even B-29s required modification in order to carry atomic weapons. The best candidate available to the Luftwaffe would have been the He 177, capable of carrying a device considerably smaller than the “Little Boy” bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

Could submarines have delivered the devices? Conceivably. A nuclear torpedo was probably beyond the means of the Kriegsmarine, but a submarine sufficiently close to its target could probably deliver the warhead in a small boat. But getting into position was no mean task by 1943, Allied anti-submarine warfare was devastating Germany’s submarine fleet. Only the Type XXI submarines could have approached useful targets with any degree of certainty, and these boats did not appear until late in the war.

The V-2 ballistic missiles represented the most obvious potential delivery vehicles. They could deliver payloads at range, with little chance of interception, and with enough accuracy for an atomic warhead. However, V-2s had a startling launch failure rate, making them a sketchy option for an atomic payload. They also lacked the ability to carry heavy payloads reducing a warhead to sufficiently small size, and reinforcing it such that it could handle the rigors of launch, flight, and separation, were tasks likely beyond Nazi Germany in any useful timeframe.

Use of the Weapon:

How would the Germans have used the atomic bomb, if they had managed to construct it? It depends, naturally, on Germany’s tactical situation when it developed the weapon, and on the delivery systems it had available.

Obvious strategic targets include London and Moscow, and the Luftwaffe could probably have delivered them successfully with a fair degree of confidence. An attack on either would have proved devastating. In the case of Moscow, a surprise strike that decapitated the Soviet leadership might have caused very serious problems, although the Red Army would undoubtedly have continued to fight. In the West, the V-2 campaign had a serious impact on British morale, and an atomic device would have had an even more devastating impact. It’s worth keeping in mind, however, that the Combined Bomber Offensive was delivering atomic levels of destruction to the Reich from 1943 on, and that this effort failed to force a German surrender. In any case, the center of gravity of the Western Allied war effort had passed to the other side of the Atlantic, and the United States was likely out of reach.

If hard-pressed by the Red Army, Germany could have used its weapons for tactical effect. An atomic weapon could have had a devastating impact on armored columns, staging areas, or command centers, although with a small number of warheads the Germans would have had to take great care in target selection. The Red Army moved on such a massive scale that even an atomic attack might not have upset its grandest offensives.

On the naval side, the Bikini atom bomb tests demonstrated that modern naval units could survive atomic attacks, if imperfectly. As with the war in the East, atomic bombs could have dented the Western Allied naval advantage, but likely not to the extent of severing the trans-Atlantic lifeline. Major amphibious operations, such as the Normandy Invasion, would have proven far juicier targets, although they would have required very judicious decisions on the part of the Germans.

The Final Salvo:

Nazi Germany could have developed nuclear weapons if it had won the war. It could not develop them as war-winning weapons, both because of the demands of the project and the limitations of early atomic devices. Only the United States could combine the economic resources and the long-time horizon necessary to develop the bomb, while at the same time developing a fleet of bombers capable of delivering it.

Robert Farley, a frequent contributor to TNI, is author of The Battleship Book. He serves as a Senior Lecturer at the Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce at the University of Kentucky. His work includes military doctrine, national security, and maritime affairs. He blogs at Lawyers, Guns and Money and Information Dissemination and The Diplomat.

Image: Hitler addresses the Reichstag in 1941. Wikimedia Commons / Deutsches Bundesarchiv, Bild 183-2006-0315-500 / Schwan / CC-BY-SA 3.0


Alternative history - The East if Nazi Germany had won

Wasn't sure where to put this so I thought id put it here.

I am curious what peoples views are on this alternative history idea regarding Islamic extremism and the Israeli - Palestine situation if the Nazis had won WW2.

Do you think extreme Islam would exist?
What do you think the land of Israel today would be called/would be?

I think its an interesting topic.

I believe if they would have won Israel would be a under complete German control due to its religious worth. I don't think it would be under Iew, or Arab control.

I think the Jewish population would only be in the USA

I do believe extreme Islam would be alive, but anywhere near to the extent it is today.

Then we would all be the terrorists. A successful Nazi world government would be met with constant rebellion in the most viscous manners possible: terrorism. Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. Nobody of any redeeming spirituality would condone the actions of Hitler therefore nearly every religious path would form their own "Jihad" against the Nazi regime.

And we would all be labeled "extremists" by the Nazis for fighting back.

Not mention those loyal to the American Constitution will take a Second American Revolution should the Nazis takeover America.

I rather doubt that.
The German's doctrine of if a town sprouts partisians burn it to the ground would eventually put an end to it.

With a heavy cost in blood.
Is peace really worth it at such a price?
I think not.

Would be a complete and total nightmare.
I think extreme Islam would still pop up.
If for nothing more than "the Holy Land" being occupied by infidels.

However, the Nazis would respond brutally and it would probably be a case of two monsters fighting.

Are they white,blonde and blue eyed and utterly DEVOTED to the Reich? If not then they were a mongrel race and as such would be allowed to exist until the time came for them NOT to.

HITLER was really WHY they lost ,his ideas were nothing less than FULL TILT BOZO. they weren't logical.

Hitler was allied with japan, last time i checked they where not white and aryan, germany was a close allie to turkey in ww1.

An piece of paper.
Hitler signed a lot of them.

Nazi ideology believed war was essential to strengthen the people, so hitler was going to wipe most of the slavic people out indeed all if he could as he intended to populate russia with German ethnic people, other races where to relegated to worker or slave status and they middle east had not yet entered there long term plans except and in so far as they used Arab's as allies to fight the British, had britain been able to mobilize it's empire and early on repelled the german's in north africa securing the oil field's the war in the west might have been quite different, indeed it was because of Britain's hold out that Russia survived.

The North atlantic convoy's delivered much needed weapons and supply's to Russia and the route was one of the most hellish any sailor could ever sail but Operation Barbarosa which as a pet plan of Hitler (who hated all russians including the Ukrainian's and wanted to wipe them all out including the Ukrainian's as that was is ideological plan) actually lifted the pressure on the UK and operation sea lion was shelved (Operation sea lion was the german invasion plan for Britain) as they could not gain air superiority over britain (Due to Hitler ordering a switch of bombing from the air field's to the city's of Britain).

This respite brought Russia who had technically been at war with britain and france due to there co invasion of poland with germany on to the allie's side and with not much choice we then decided to help the russians as best we could.

The attack on pearl harbor was the seed change that brought the US into the war, they had been fiercely neutral until the japanese attacked them but now public pressure in the US not only took them to war with Japan but with her Allie Nazi Germany and the liberty ship's that the US shipyard's were able to produce at lightning speed soon overwhelmed the German submarine fleet's that had been strangling britain at sea, they also provided a lifeline of american good's and weapons to Russia.

What would the world have been like had England accepted Germanys attempt to negotiate a peace with them and to have formed an alliance with Hitler as he had always dreamed of, well Hitler looked at the British rule of India with biased and tinted glasses interpreting the 5000 british functionary's that ran hundred's of million's of indians as a sign of a Germanic People's (The british) superiority and he actually idolized the british empire before the war, But he wanted his own, had this come to pass the Empire of Britain and the new Empire of Greater Germany would both still exist but have been built on the bones of countless murdered men woman and children and that is too high a cost.

In the early 1930's Hitler was convinced America was going to go to war with the British empire and he had good reason as at that time there was a lot of anti british sentiment in the state's, the canadians were preparing for an invasion by US forces and a counter attack but there plans hinged on the british coming to there aid while the british had drawn up contingency plans to abandon canada and cede it to the state's having done the math's and arrived at the conclusion they could not beat the US but could hold them indefinitely in the Atlantic, meanwhile Hitler had his generals' draw up plan's to come to Britain's aid in the even to war breaking out with America.

History is a tangled mess, the Arab's would still exist though and remember Turkey had been germany's traditional ally.

Russian and her people would have been wiped out, Most of europe would have undergone the Eugenic program's and breeding policy's of the Third Reich as well as reeducation.

The name of the Jewish people would now be found no where in europe.

The blood of the innocent would have created an unstoppable monster that would eventually consume the world as with Nazi Ideology believing war was essential they would have waged ideological and racial war in asia eventually turning on there japanese allies after wiping the chinese out and also I can foresee the establishment of German colony's in arabia and the take over of all french and belgian colonies, rebellions would be a boon to them as War makes the people strong so eventually the native's first enslaved would have been eradicated.

The NAZI's wanted enough land to be self sufficient in food and raw materials. People are the same on many levels, it stands to reason that Germany wanted enough to be secure, and no more. More eventually gives a diminishing return.

The NAZI's started the Holocaust after the war had gone wrong and slave labor by all non-Aryans was the only way to maintain production.

If the NAZI's had won in the East, Israel might have been established anyway, to get the Jews out of Germany.

Especially if the war was all a casino game with the bankers as the house.

Germany had never ruled the Arabs, and could have better brokered an diplomatic and acceptable deal for Jewish residency.


What if the Axis had won World War 2?

What if the Axis had won World War 2? – This is one of the most popular ‘What if’ scenarios frequently discussed among history enthusiasts and writers on forums and in works of fictions. It is no surprise after all since it relates to an event both historically recent and profoundly significant, being further popularized by works such as Man in the High Castle, Swastika Nights and Wolfenstein which vividly present us with a dystopian alternative world where the Axis powers reign dominant. However, many of these takes on this topic tend to engage in undue flattery and exaggeration of the power that the Axis nations wielded. As any informed historian will tell you, the Axis powers had very slim chances of victory, being out resourced, outmaneuvered and outgunned by the Allies.

If in an alternate timeline the Axis did somehow achieved victory, what would the world have looked like? Taking cues from real-world analogies and with an understanding of the geopolitical realities of the major powers, we try to paint as accurate as possible the image of a world where the Axis had won World War 2.

How the Axis Could have Won?

Wehrmacht soldiers on the offense in Stalingrad

We first need to build up our alternative timeline by first creating the setting for how the Axis could have won the war. For that to happen, the US has to keep itself neutral. The lopsided economic advantage the Allies enjoyed over the Axis thanks to the sheer industrial might of the US ensured the Axis would soon lose out one way or another.

In our alternative timeline, isolationist politics triumphs over the US and the country keeps its neutrality throughout the war. With oil, scrap metal and rubber from the Americas still being supplied to the Japanese, no event like Peral Harbor happens. Without constraints on supplies, factions in the military favoring an attack on the USSR gain momentum and Operation Kantokuen happens.

Meanwhile in Europe, like in our real timeline, Germany does not have the logistics nor the technical capabilities to launch a successful invasion of the British Isles but with no lend-lease and dwindling supplies, Great Britain is eventually forced into a negotiated surrender. Great Britain likely loses its holding in Northern Africa and the Middle-East. With the Western front secured and oil being supplied from the south, Germany concentrates on winning the war in the East while the Japanese forces have already launched their invasion of Siberia.

Even in this far more favored scenario for the Axis, victory isn’t guaranteed against the Soviets. Like in our timeline, the Soviet still have ample military divisions stationed in the East to potentially not only repulse a Japanese offensive but threaten the destruction of the Japanese industrial base since the country itself is in range of Soviet bombers. Despite more resources at hand, Germany still would not be able to capitulate the Soviet before the onset of General Winter. Nazi racial ideology and prosecutions ended up being the greatest asset to the Soviet cause as people who erstwhile may have been of immense help to the Germans in their war efforts such as the Ukrainians and Belarusians rose up in the fight against the Germans alongside the Russians due to Nazi atrocities.

But for the sake of setting our alternative timeline, Hitler acts sanely for once and is more pragmatic in his occupation policy, Stalin suffers a stroke for some reason in the middle of the war and the Soviet thus suffer from a leadership crisis and finally, due to Japanese aggression, the Red Army mobilizes more resources in the east, leaving not enough divisions in place to counter German advance when Hitler launches Operation Barbarossa. The Soviet capitulate and the Germans consolidate their gains west of the Urals while the Japanese do likewise in Siberia, leaving a rump state in between them to act as a buffer. With that, the improbable has been ensured – an Axis victory in WW2.

The World of Axis Hegemony

Victory parade held in Berlin commemorating the 15th anniversary of the German victory in World War 2

Now on to the main question at hand – how would have history played out in a world where the Axis have defeated the Allies?

Immediate consequences

Similar to the split between the USSR, Yugoslavia and China like in our timeline, due to ideological and geopolitical frictions, Germany, Italy and Japan don’t remain allies for long once the war is over. Due to the exclusionist nature of the Fascist doctrine, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan eventually develop a bitter rivalry. Italy, Portugal and Spain, being threatened by Germany try to maintain an official stance of neutrally, even developing closer ties with the U.S as well to counterbalance German influence.

East Asia

In China, with the Japanese unable to penetrate the vast interior of China and the Chinese Nationalists likewise, unable to dislodge the Japanese from the coastal areas, eventually, after years of a bloody stalemate, sign an armistice. The Communists, without support from USSR like in our timeline, have been completely eradicated. Nationalist China likely falls under German influence while the Japanese install a puppet government in the Chinese occupied regions similar to how they did in Korea and Manchuria. The scenario likely plays out similar to the North/South Korean divide in our timeline, only on a far grander scale.

The Third World

In our real timeline, the British Empire was already on the decline even before the war started. After the war, Britain was too weak to keep hold of her empire and thus gave in to pressure from the various independence movements in her colonies as well as growing domestic support for them. In our alternative scenario, call for independence is accelerated as the news of Britain’s defeat spreads to her colonies but Britain’s defeat also breeds a domestic environment of chauvinism, leading to Britain delaying or forcefully suppressing independence of colonies it could hope to still keep as part of its empire.

In our timeline, it was the intervention of the Superpowers, USSR and USA that allowed independence movements to succeed against European powers opposed to independence such as France and Portugal. In this alternative timeline, with the US neutral and both Germany and Japan themselves imperialist, many colonies are unable to gain their independence.

However, countries like India and Egypt because of their size are still able to achieve their freedom without need of outside intervention. However, any hope of democratic rule in these newly independent countries quickly fades as the victory of Fascist power over Western democracies leads to greater appeal for non-democratic forms of rule.

The US

Meanwhile, like in our timeline, the U.S emerges as the largest economy after the war, having been spared the destruction of war impacting the rest of the world. However, the relative size of the U.S economy compared to the rest of the world only continues to diverge further. In this timeline, the U.S economy isn’t burdened by trying to maintain the Bretton Woods system (which doesn’t exist) and its manufacturing industry doesn’t face competition from rising economies in Asia. The U.S retains a trade surplus and benefits immensely from immigration as skilled talent escape prosecutions in the Old World.

As the years pass, the divergence between the U.S and rest of the world grows dramatically as innovation in the U.S gains pace, benefitting from a higher pool of talents thanks to immigration, high social mobility and less exclusion. Meanwhile, the Fascist powers lag behind as a lot of their resources are spent on censorship and suppression while a majority of the population is excluded from advancing, thus the talent pool is much restricted.

Europe

Both Hitler’s mental and physical health was declining rapidly in the last years of his reign before he committed suicide in our own history. In this alternative scenario, while he doesn’t commit suicide, he still dies in a few years after. Either Göring or Goebbels is a likely successor. However, If Himmler succeeds in the ensuing interparty struggle, a coup by the military possibly takes place.

Drawing lessons from examples in our timeline of instances where the ideological leaders died in a dictatorship, we can interpret that the first thing his successor does after seizing power is to purge individuals from the regime that were closest to Hitler to consolidate his own rule. Secretly Hitler is denounced in secret party meetings while a positive image of him in public is kept maintained. This is what happened in many real-life dictatorships such as USSR after the death of Stalin and China after the death of Mao.

This new regime reverts many of the old ideologically motivated policies as its main interest is staying in power and enriching itself rather than any strict implementation of the founder’s ideology. However, tragedies such as the Holocaust still continue. In our timeline, even as the Nazis were on a losing war front and short of resources, they continued their elimination of the European Jews. The only way to prevent the near extinction of the European Jews in this alternative history would be if the German people themselves protested strongly against the crimes, giving the military a pretext to curtail the powers of the SS. However, in reality, given how apathetic or even supportive the common public was of Jewish persecutions, such a scenario is unlikely.

On the other hand, the systematic destruction of Slavic people would be an unrealistic scenario. The regime, being short of labor due to the war and realizing that people are less willing to resist you if you’re not trying to exterminate them, instead pursues a policy of implementing a racially divided society with ethnic Germans at the top. Despite the official surrender of Soviets in the war, communist-led guerilla warfare and underground movements in Europe and Asia continue to be a drain on the resources of Fascist powers.

In this far less free alternative history, an Apartheid like system eventually emerges and becomes the norm, instead of multiculturalism like in our timeline. This would be the arrangement between Germans and Slavs in Europe, Latins and Arabs in the Mediterranean and North Africa, Japan and Han Chinese in East Asia, Whites and non-whites in the Americas and Africa.

A New Cold War Begins

With the Germans first to reach the moon, the U.S sets its sights on Mars in an attempt to win the Space Race.

The U.S of this alternative timeline doesn’t remain isolationist for long as news of the Nazi atrocities reaches the American press and politicians began to realize the extent of threat Nazi Germany poses.

Nazi Germany is the first country to develop nuclear bombs but other Great Powers such as the US and even Japan are able to develop their own nuclear capabilities by the late 50s. A new three-way Cold War emerges between the three Superpowers of this alternative timeline. The world is divided into three blocs, a Nazi-led Europe and Africa (which is still under white minority rule), a U.S led Americas and a Japan led Asia-Pacific. Lesser powers such as Great Britain, Australia and India either align with any of the three blocs or choose to remain neutral.

The Middle-East becomes, like in our timeline, a ground for proxy warfare between the three powers. Somewhere in the 60s, with the development of medium-range missiles, a Cuban-missile like crisis likely occurs, most probably in Iceland from where German missiles could reach the US mainland. Just like in our timeline, the U.S becomes highly interventionist in Latin American politics. However, in this alternative history, America finances socialist coups against fascist governments rather than vice versa.

In our timeline, the Japanese economy, benefitting from political stability, greater social freedoms and access to rich Western markets, grew exponentially in size after the war. In this alternative history, however, the Japanese economy starts to stagnate far sooner with the Asian states under its influence in the so-called Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere unable to provide a large enough market for its manufactured goods. The economy also suffers from a lack of incentives to shift to a capital-intensive mode of production due to the easy availability of cheap labor and resources from Asia.

As Japan lags behind, both Nazi Europe and the U.S try and fill in the power vacuum it generates. Feeling more threatened by Nazi Germany, Japan develops closer ties with the U.S. It isn’t an improbable scenario. In our own timeline, the U.S did garner strong ties with oppressive regimes which opposed the Soviet Union and still today maintains an alliance with countries such as Saudi Arabia. The US signs a mutual defense pact with Imperial Japan as a means of countering Nazi influence in the region. Following the death of Emperor Hirohito, his son Akihito, taking heavy influence from the US, makes a deliberate attempt at democratizing the nation.

Meanwhile, in Nazi Europe, the first few decades see rising prosperity as Europe recovers from the devastation of the war and the large continental market becomes increasingly integrated. However, with the majority of non-Germans excluded from the formal economy, a parallel black economy strings up, creating sources of revenue for the resistance movements to sustain themselves on in Nazi-occupied lands.

In terms of technology, Germany retains an edge in many fields as rocketry, armaments and mechanics over that of US in the initial decades. The Space race is far more protracted and intense, with Germany being the first to send a man to the moon. However, by the ending decades of 20 th century, the larger and more innovative economy of America allows it to outcompete Nazi Germany, especially with the rise of the domestic IT revolution.

Defeat

As the economic gap between Nazi Germany and the US continues to increase, the former finds it increasingly hard to sustain an arms race, further hampered by the continuous fighting against insurgency in Eastern Europe, made much worse by implicit American support. With stagnating standards of livings and never-ending war in the East, protests begin to erupt across Western Europe.

The Nazi regime tries to increasingly relax its suppressive policies as a means of staying in power. This is what many dictatorships in our own timeline did in the later decades of the century. However, with greater freedom comes greater awareness of the outside world and this leads to even greater demands for liberty. By the late 90s, occupation of Western Europe becomes increasingly difficult and the German military begins to withdraw. Western European countries finally are able to hold democratic elections after decades of oppressive rule.

In Eastern Europe, however, the situation is far more complicated due to the presence of a sizable German minority and a history of prosecution of the Slavic majority. While the German regime does grant independence to the colonies, instead of democracies, corrupt dictators take hold of power on a pretext of maintaining social peace. These regimes are given backing by the now weakened but still powerful Nazi Germany.

The economic liberalization of Nazi Germany results in a large-scale capital flight and a severe economic crisis, threatening to plunge the rest of the world into a recession. The American administration creates the Bush plan in response, a series of concessional loans and stimulation packages to stabilize western European economies and encourage growth.

Declassification of official documents makes the world finally aware of the extent of past Nazi atrocities. Facing international condemnation and an economic crisis, opportunistic factions within the regime take their chance to switch sides and join the growing opposition movement against the regime. Election are held but democratic rule occurs in name only as many leading members of the past regime are still able to keep office. However, over time, the country slowly manages to transition into a full liberal democracy.

The Present Day

Władysław Bartoszewski, a guerilla fighter turned peace activist played a leading role in the growing democracy movement in Eastern Europe

It is 2019 and in this alternative history, Facebook, Apple and Burger king still exist but man have been to Mars and the world is going through an economic boon due to the opening up of markets in Europe and Asia. However, racism is far more prevalent and the institution of universal human rights less entrenched.

India, which is ruled under a technocratic dictatorship, has become the manufacturing hub of the global economy. China remains divided between an increasingly isolationist Nationalist dictatorship and a fast-growing coastal democracy. Decolonization has just started in Africa. In East Europe, Poland-Ukraine leads the way in the growing democratization movement across the region. However, tensions exist between the German minority enjoying a disproportionate presentation in many sectors of the country and the Slavic majority demanding repatriation and affirmative action for past injustices. The US is more liberal and Europe is more conservative than their counterparts in our timeline. Canada is still Canada but less polite.


7 A Great Wall Of Baby-Makers

The Nazi defense against the new Japanese empire had to start at the 70th meridian east. In time, they were sure, there would be a war between the two new rulers of the world, and they needed to be ready when it came.

The plan was to make a &ldquoliving wall&rdquo of German colonists who would reside along the border, reproducing as madly as they could. Any man of worth who had served 12 years in the Nazi army was to be sent to the eastern border, given a farm and a gun, and ordered to have as many babies as possible.

The men in the baby-making squad of Nazi veterans were required to marry locals. They couldn&rsquot bring German wives with them. This was supposed to distill the gene pool on the border and make a new generation of half-German babies. It could only work if those Nazi soldiers spent a lot of time in the bedroom. For the sake of his country, Hitler demanded, every man on the eastern front was expected to father at least seven babies. [4]


1. The war drags on a little longer but with the same result

So Stalingrad has fallen and the Germans have conquered the city. But at what cost?

In our timeline, Germany suffered 80% of its casualties during WW2 on the Eastern Front, a good portion of those at Stalingrad - around 850,000 casualties along with a vast amount of military equipment. It was the single biggest defeat in the history of the German army and the battle took a hefty toll on the Nazi cause. In any scenario in which the German army takes Stalingrad, the bloody street-to-street combat ensures the Germans will suffer great losses, impacting the effectiveness at which it can continue to carry out its eastern offensive.

With Stalingrad behind them, the Germans now stagger on towards the oilfields of Baku in the Caucasus, one of the main objectives of their 1942 summer offensive into southern Russia, known as Case Blue. The vast majority of Germany’s oil comes from Romania but stocks are running low, meaning the Soviet oilfields are extremely important for Hitler’s war efforts.

Although the Soviets have lost Stalingrad, they still vastly outnumber the Germans and their strong resistance continues.

However, the Soviets destroy the oil production facilities during their retreat. In all likelihood, it will take the Germans somewhere between 1-2 years to repair these facilities and have them producing the fuel that the mechanised Nazi war machine so desperately craves.

Even if the Germans can get the oilfields up and running quicker than a year, their already overstretched supply lines will be pushed to the limit. They’d have to build, secure and protect a route that the oil could be transported along connecting the Caucasus all the way back to the West.

Although the Soviets have lost Stalingrad, they still vastly outnumber the Germans and their strong resistance continues. They target German supply lines, especially those carrying oil, and make a number of attempts to retake Stalingrad.

Hitler’s belief that Slavs are ‘sub-human’ and his policy of complete annihilation means his forces gain little favour from the various nations/non-Russians within the Soviet Union, who no longer see the Nazis as liberators but instead take up arms against them.

Without the immediate benefit of the oilfields, combined with the sheer size and logistical complexity of Russia, defending the Caucasus stretches the Wehrmacht beyond its limits.

Although delayed, the outcome of the war remains the same as in our timeline, with Germany eventually retreating from Russia and losing the war.


Hitler’s Quest for Power Was Nearly Derailed Multiple Times. But the System Enabled His Rise

A dolf Hitler did not have to come to power. Indeed, during his 13-year quest for leadership of Germany, he almost failed many times.

In the end, however, his astonishing success showed how demagoguery could overcome potentially career-ending challenges&mdashand profoundly change history. A determined strongman, not taken seriously by the elites but enabled by a core of passionate supporters, could bend events his way just as his country went into free-fall. Hitler&rsquos seemingly improbable ascent is an object lesson in the volatility of history.

While researching my new book on the radical Nazi&rsquos rise, I was stunned at the number of times Hitler&rsquos quest for power almost came to an end&mdashand how close the world came, it seems, to avoiding the terror he caused. The first was in 1923, when he staged an ill-fated coup d&rsquoétat that became known as the Beer Hall Putsch. It failed within 17 hours. Twenty men were killed, and Hitler missed being hit in a barrage of police bullets by only two feet. The man next to him died. Hitler threatened suicide and, in prison, attempted a hunger strike. In the end, he stood trial and was convicted of treason.

That event should have ended Hitler&rsquos political career. But the Nazi chief was a fanatic. Convinced of his messianic mission to save Germany from imminent downfall, he wrote an autobiographical manifesto called Mein Kampf, obtained early parole from prison and refounded the Nazi movement in 1925. Hitler&rsquos party drew true believers and grew. Yet in 1926, he faced an internal insurrection and possible party splintering. At the last minute, he quelled the challenge with a four-hour stemwinder at a closed Nazi meeting.

A year later, the Nazi Party was broke. Hitler again considered suicide, telling his new acolyte, Joseph Goebbels, that he would rather put a bullet into his head than accept bankruptcy. He was saved by a rich industrialist, Emil Kirdorf. Motivated by a four-hour Hitler monologue delivered at a Munich mansion, Kirdorf reportedly gave the Nazi Party 100,000 marks&mdash$350,000 in today&rsquos money.

In 1928, Hitler led his radical band into national elections&mdashand fell flat. Preaching doom and downfall, Hitler swam against the historical tide. Germany&rsquos economy was rebounding. The Nazis won only 2.6% of the vote, hitting rock bottom.

Even after the Great Depression prompted a turnaround for the flailing party&mdashby 1930, the Nazis had won 18.3% in a national election&mdashhe faced another mutiny within the party and then, in 1931, a scandal prompted by the suicide of his 23-year-old niece, Geli Raubal, who was assumed by many to be his lover. The political roller-coaster ride continued. In 1932, Hitler&rsquos Nazis reached a peak of 37% of the parliamentary vote, but Hitler&rsquos refusal to be part of a coalition led the party to shed two million votes in the year&rsquos final election.

After Hitler&rsquos top lieutenant, Gregor Strasser, dramatically defected, threatening a party break-up, the Nazi leader&rsquos meteoric political rise seemed at an end. &ldquoIt is obvious that [Hitler] is now headed downhill,&rdquo wrote a leading newspaper. &ldquoThe republic has been rescued.&rdquo

Even Goebbels was devastated. &ldquoThe year 1932 has been one long streak of bad luck,&rdquo he wrote. &ldquoWe just have to smash it to pieces.&rdquo

But to the amazement of many, Hitler was not dead yet.

By January 1933, German politics was in a tailspin&mdashunemployment had hit 24%, with 6 million out of work. A new government was desperately needed. After a series of clandestine meetings of behind-the-scenes political players in a posh Berlin villa, Hitler emerged as the secret choice to be appointed chancellor by President Paul von Hindenburg.

However, the secret arrangement depended on a delicately balanced, multi-party cabinet. Then, just hours before his scheduled swearing in by President Hindenburg, the Nazi leader demanded that his prospective cabinet ministers agree to new elections within six weeks&mdasha move that would affirm the Nazis&rsquo hold on power. It was a stunning last-second condition, yet all agreed except Alfred Hugenberg, who was to be minister of economics and agriculture. The stubborn old politician, 24 years Hitler&rsquos senior, distrusted the noisy Nazi and did not want to give him an even freer hand.

The deal for Hitler to take power now threatened to become unraveled, yet again.

Without Hugenberg, everyone knew, there would be no cabinet, no government, no swearing-in.

As Hitler and the cabinet members entered the chancellery, where the 84-year-old Hindenburg waited for them, the president&rsquos top aide rushed up, his pocket watch in hand. &ldquoGentlemen, you can’t keep the president waiting any longer,&rdquo he said.

Suddenly Hugenberg, a man of the old school who revered manners, authority and age, accepted Hitler&rsquos conditions. Hitler&rsquos last brush with political obscurity was averted. Over the prior two decades, he had relied on luck and rhetoric to save his career time and again&mdashbut behind those factors lay, always, a larger context of German politics that enabled his rise. His speeches could head off a mutiny, but the success or failure of the German economy held more sway over the fortunes of the Nazi Party. And here, once again, was a moment when Hitler&rsquos mania for power did not succeed alone, but instead with the help of a system that let it happen. Within 15 minutes, he had become chancellor of Germany, setting the stage for the horrors that followed.

The following day, Hugenberg told a friend: &ldquoYesterday, I did the stupidest thing of my life. I joined forces with the greatest demagogue in world history.&rdquo


If Nazi Germany had had industrial parity in WWII, would they have won?

Difficulty here is the "how". The Allies, particularly the U.S. had enormous internal resources at hand (oil being first on the list), without some sort of ASB level intervention Germany is never going to match the Permian Basin (not even mentioning the other readily accessible oil basins across the U.S.) or coal fields scattered across North America nor the Copper mines of the upper Plains, or the mineral wealth of Commonwealth South Africa, or the vast resources of the USSR.

The other issue (and this is one that is almost always forgotten) is that the REAL, back-breaking advantage that the Allies had was the specifics of American manufacturing techniques. by 1939 the United States had taken "mass production" to a level that could not even be imagined elsewhere. We are all used to seeing the sort of production that marks, as an example, the auto industry today, where Japanese and German companies have equaled or in many cases surpassed American manufacturers. That was not the case in WW II. American companies were all about volume and speed. A perfect example of this is the difference between the RR Merlin and the Packard built mass production variants. The RR Merlins were pieces of art, every one what American car fans call "blueprinted" engines where the final fit and finish of parts was done by an expert machinist all the way down to the piston rings (the Merlin's original blueprints included a number of "hand machine to fit" instructions), overall exquisite, engine sized, watches. Packard took one look at the blueprints and lost their minds. "What do you mean "hand fit"? We're going to be building these things on an assembly line. Every single part in every single engine has to be identical." The RR engineers thought the Packard folk had lost their sense, no way to punch out Merlins like they were buttons.

Well, the Packard folks came back with "hold my beer" and proceeded to redesign the Packard V-1650 so every engine could use any piston ring, or valve stem, or any other part straight out of the parts bin without so much as an assembly worker using as much as a metal rasp throughout the process. The engines were not works of art, but they had identical performance and Packard built 55,000+ of them. Same thing happened with the RR turbo charge design. Rather than retype it I'll just quote it

"In my enthusiasm, I considered that Rolls-Royce designs were the ne plus ultra, until the Ford Motor Co. in Britain was invited to manufacture the Merlin in the early days of the War. A number of Ford engineers arrived in Derby, and spent some months examining and familiarizing themselves with the drawings and manufacturing methods. One day their Chief Engineer appeared in (Merlin development head Cyril Lovesey's) office, which I was then sharing, and said, 'You know, we can't make the Merlin to these drawings.'

"I replied loftily, 'I suppose that is because the drawing tolerances are too difficult for you, and you can't achieve the accuracy.'

"'On the contrary,' he replied, 'the tolerances are far too wide for us. We make motor cars far more accurately than this. Every part on our car engines has to be interchangeable with the same part on any other engine, and hence all parts have to be made with extreme accuracy, far closer than you use. That is the only way we can achieve mass production.'"

original quote is from Not Much of an Engineer Stanley Hooker's autobiography.

Everywhere else in the world the same sort, to greater or lesser degree, of individual fitment had to be done (and this didn't just mean at original time of construction, every time a mechanic had to replace a part they had to be ready to fiddle with it).

The U.S. mass produced SHIPS. Kaiser yards would build parts of a 14,000 ton Liberty Ship in sections, then literally put the pieces in a huge jig and weld them together, using unskilled labor, largely women who had never even seen a welding torch or rivet gun in their lives before the war started. Now the resulting ships were ugly as hell, and were more or less designed to be the ship equivalent of fresh milk, use it because it is going to go bad fairly quickly, but those unskilled workers managed to build them from keel to launch in 42 days (average pre-war construction from keel to launch for a 14,000 ton cargo ship was 8 months), and did it better than 2,700 times.

It isn't enough to give the Reich the same number of factories (i.e. industry power). It need more resources than can possibly exist inside German borders (or all of Western Europe for that matter, straight line from San Francisco to Baltimore is 4,150km while the distance from Irun (on the French-Spanish to Moscow is

3,200km) AND it needs an entirely difference business/industrial/engineering culture.


Alternate History discussion

I know there's alot of books about Nazi Germany winning and the Turtledove Series following the US/CS had the US/Germany winning World War I setting the stage for a Nazi-CSA, but does anyone know of any books where germany wins world war I? And does anyone know or have a thought about how the world would look in that universe?

Loren wrote: "I know there's alot of books about Nazi Germany winning and the Turtledove Series following the US/CS had the US/Germany winning World War I setting the stage for a Nazi-CSA, but does anyone know o. "

I asked that same question over on a History Book group and got the same answer you gave. Try Turtledove. I've read most of Turtledove and I don't recall any with this premise.

My personal thoughts on the matter are. That if you assume that Germany wins early and the diplomats patch up a piece, then there will be no communist dictatorship in Russia, no communist movement in the world. The Ottoman empire remains intact and the bulk of the world oil reserves are now controlled by it. Germany remains the dominant nation in Europe and gradually moves to a monarchy patterned after
England. Austria retains a large hold on the Balkans.
China remains locked in a struggle between the war lords and the Republic. Japan refuses to return German's colonies and there is a naval war between these two countries for several years which finally ends with Japan triumphant and more aggressive than ever. The USA never have gotten into the war remains a third rate power with an even more isolationist outlook. The British empire remains as is. France becomes dominated by a very conservative government but is unable to do anything about revenge due to the overwhelming power of Germany. There is no Israel nor holocaust and the major power blocs are a British and German Empire alliance against the Ottomans.

Ottoman Empire was going to fail - it was just a matter of time. Also, the Ottoman Empire in 1914 did not control Arabia except for loose control of the Red Sea shore. So while they would have the oil fields in modern Iraq, nearly all those in modern Saudi Arabia (and modern Iran) were outside Ottoman control.

Austria too was weakening to the point where internal nationalist forces would surely have been a problem eventually.

No Israel and probably no League Of Nations to set the stage for the United Nations could be significant.

Russian monarchy's survival is probably not as sure a thing either: Russia has still been beaten again and the people are still unhappy. It wouldn't go down like it did in 1917 by any means, but continued discontent among the populace - especially if it spread to the army - could lead to an eventual toppling of the Romanov dynasty. Whether the Communists could have capitalized on that slower upheaval is more doubtful.

US-Japan war probably still happens.

Josh wrote: "Ottoman Empire was going to fail - it was just a matter of time. Also, the Ottoman Empire in 1914 did not control Arabia except for loose control of the Red Sea shore. So while they would have th. "

Since the Ottoman Empire had been sick for several hundred years but still functioning, I don't think its early demise can be assumed. Especially if the young Turks come to influence and shape the extended empire. Without British backing of the Arabs I sort of assumed the Turks would reconquer the Arabs especially as their German advisers and suppliers would be plentiful. It is really hard to pull together convincing arguments on what-if scenarios and I can't really argue with anything you have stated.

I am not sure it was a possibility. They simply did not have the manpower to make a breakout move on the Western Front nor did they have the naval power to contest the Royal Navy. That said, Imperial Germany certainly could have fought to a stalemate and as Britain bled itself white with incompetent generalship and the French army was rocked with massive mutinies this is exactly would have happened - EXCEPTING of course the warmonger Woodrow Wilson looking out for the Wall Street bankers who had ill-advisedly backed the British and French with unsustainable war loans. Wilson's intervention (in spite of a US electorate that firmly against involvement in the bloodbath of the Western Front) set the table for the dramatic turn in fortunes for Great Britain and France and the revenge orgy that became the Versailles Treaty and thus paved the way for just about everything else that went wrong for the remainder of the 20th Century.

Funny how Wilson's "I will not send American boys to fight in a European War" campaign rhetoric of 1916 sounds so similar to FDR's 1940 promises and LBJ's 1964 promises.



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